Wish You Were Here

It's May 2020. And Mayfest isn't happening. And this is not a Mayfest podcast.

Kate

Hello, Matthew.

Matthew

Hi, Kate.

We've already spoken twice on the phone today haven't we?

Kate

Yeah, we have, so shall we just...

Matthew

Just call it a day?

Kate

Okay, bye! I've said all I've got to say to you,

Matthew

Where's a good place to start? We were talking earlier about the last time we were actually in the same room. So maybe that's a good place to start. Which was mid March, I think. And we were in the office. And we had just cancelled the festival. We were writing emails to people to say that we are going to cancel and you said, 'this might be the last time we're in here for a while' and it really stuck with me. I keep coming back to that moment. And a couple of times I've been into the office to water the the plants, and it feels really eerie. All our post-it notes still on the wall. That's really weird.

Kate

Yeah, I'm sort of glad that I haven't – well, obviously, I'm not glad that I haven't been into the office, because I miss that space. But, equally, I'm pleased that I haven't been in there in this time.

Matthew

Yeah.

Kate

Because the feeling of that day is was a very curious experience. Obviously, as it is for lots of people. And I felt like we had a weird 24 hours of dancing around the idea, but knowing that we had to cancel. Just magical thinking that maybe there will be something which means that we won't have to. But then it wasn't even our decision anymore.

Matthew

Yeah.

Kate

And so that curious mixture of the unbearable feeling of responsibility and having to do a thing that you just don't want to do. But that you know is the right thing to do. And then that not even being your decision anymore anyway. I don't think there's even a comparable experience for that quickness of turnaround. But yeah, 'we won't be in here for a while'.

Matthew

Yes, it's weird.

Kate

And how is that for you? Where are you?

Matthew

I'm in my flat in my living room, which is also my bedroom. And I'm quite lucky, because I really like my flat. But also it's quite a lot spending all of your time in one room. I've been joined by a mouse recently, so that's nice. He woke me up in the middle of the night last night. I could hear him scratching around somewhere. On the one hand, I've always been able to work on my own and I've never really had a problem with that. But the thing that about being in the office is the people popping in. And that's artists or people we work with, or whoever. So the kind of unpredictability of being in a space with other people. And also that we were saying ... oh! there's a magpie outside my window!

Kate

You didn't greet it!

Matthew

Hello Mr. Magpie!

In this moment, when we're now trying to think about what we're going to do in the future, what might be different, blah, blah, blah, that it's really hard. I find it really hard to do that kind of thinking, when I'm not in the same room as you, particularly. Generally doing any kind of big thinking is really difficult when you're not physically with something. Because it's much more difficult to have really long pauses or you feel like you have to fill the air a bit more. And there's just, well, it's just about being the same room, isn't it? So it's that bit I miss. Where are you?

Kate

Like, conceptually or...

Matthew

Both!

Kate

I'm on my bed. I'm not in my bed. I'm on it. And I don't quite know why I've come to sit on my bed because I think this might be like, maybe the second time I've done that in the last seven or so weeks. So I wonder what that says about needing to be somewhere comfortable for this conversation. Yeah, I'm on my bed. It's a sunny bedroom. My son Joseph is downstairs watching film roles at the moment. But yeah, that. I mean, as you know, I feel really similarly about the kind of the kind of impossible feeling of trying to have meaningful ideas, let alone make meaningful decision in such a solitary space. And although we're, you know, obviously very lucky and able to stay connected, there was something about the two dimensionality of the technology that we have to use to speak to people. And so interesting to think about what being in the room means, it's to do with all of the senses, isn't it? It's what you can see, it's the other peripheral noises that you can hear that kind of feed into your conversation. And yeah, the interruptibility and the smell, and you know, things like that sort of an energy. But I thought it was interesting the other day, when we kind of, we kind of called out the fact that we're aware that we've got a bit of an impasse, still, around the question of 'what do we do'? And as soon as we turn the what into 'how do we talk about what we do', I felt immediately like something had opened up, that, you know, that the change is much more holistic. We can't really rely on the usual systems or structures such as they are, because they don't make sense.

Matthew

Yeah.

Kate

Maybe that doesn't make sense. But yeah,

Matthew

No, I know what you mean. We talked about the day of cancelling the festival and how that felt, and how the decision then was kind of not ours anymore. What I found weird is, for a while it felt like we were watching all the other festivals around the country hold out, hold out and then cancel, or feel like they were making decisions in the days after we did. And then everyone's feeling about, about what the future might be. There was a period where it was changing so quickly - it feels like it's slowed down a bit now - but that at first, it was like, oh, we'll be back again in June or, you know, the festivals that are happening in July could happen. And I think about the Edinburgh Fringe the other day and how for a while they were like, yeah, this is still happening and then that got cancelled as well. And how actually, it now feels quite clear that anyone gathering in any kind of number won't really be possible for quite a long time. So it feels like the kind of initial rush of everyone putting out online films of shows and stuff. That's also now being replaced by people actually trying to think about how we might all start making stuff again, in a different world. I find it hard to be excited about that.

Kate

About what aspects of that?

Matthew

About thinking about doing a project where everyone in the audience are in cars, or they're all standing two metres apart or whatever. Because so much of what we do in Mayfest and producing our projects is about being really close to other people and thinking about Undersong and SESSION and those shows where they just wouldn't feel as they wouldn't feel as powerful if there was a rigidity to how people were allowed to be in that space.

Kate

Yeah, I agree. Of course. That's a really tricky thing, isn't it? Because we can't just stand here obstinately stamping our foot saying no, no, this is the only way we can do things because it's because it's what we care about and what we believe in, which is true. But the culture of the organisation is formed by two people in the life that we've had so far. So that's when I'm like, we've got to be thinking about making art, you know, what does all of this mean in a new world? And that phrase, "in the new world", like I don't even understand that phrase. And nobody does. What does that look like? How do we know what it is until we're in it? Oh, hang on, we're already in it.

Matthew

Yeah.

Kate

And so the fantastical journey that you can go in and your head about what that may or may not mean. And in any case, the difference of that meaning for different people in society is vast. There are interesting lessons in there. Anyway. So it's hard to think of the next festival, isn't it?

Matthew

Yeah.

Kate

Because I just kind of just we'll do one like this, but not this, in the future. End of intelligence.

Matthew

Because who knows what it will be like in 2022? And what happens to all of the work that we were going to present this year? And when might that be possible to bring as much as we can of that to Bristol? And what's our long term relationships at the festival and all of that stuff, but it does. It has made me feel like I do really miss being at a festival.

Kate

What is it about that you miss?

I mean, it's the kind of thrill of discovering something new, I suppose; the feeling of going into a room and watching something with other people. And there's two things: there's being a pure audience member, but also there's sitting with the work that we've programmed and feeling an audience experience it for the first time, which is a really amazing feeling. I also just miss being in the bar. I miss being out of the front of Arnolfini with my shorts on in the sun or on King Street or coming out of Trinity and deciding to go the Volunteer Tavern. Basically, I just miss alcohol with other people.

Kate

I think that's the most important thing to attend to really.

Matthew

The other night I went to Tom Marshman's Annette Curtain's Big Night In and after the performance he set up a zoom link for an after party and anyone could go along. And the group of people that went, well, we didn't really know each other very well. And it was exactly the same feeling you have when you go to se a show, and then you go to the pub afterwards and you end up sitting at a table with a bunch of people who've just seen the same show, and you have a little chat and it felt really nice. I kind of miss that. That kind of unexpectedness of the connections you make.

Kate

But it can't have been exactly like it

Matthew

well, no, true

Kate

Because otherwise, we're in a circular contradiction of everything we've said so far.

Matthew

No, and actually I got tired of it quite quickly. There was a kind of momentary thrill and then you don't have all the rest of the that goes around it in the pub, I suppose.

Kate

It's something about the way in to an experience and the way out as well, which is connected to an obsession about what it means to host. I went to a couple of things at the brilliant GIFT festival. Hats off to Kate Craddock for doing a brilliant thing with reorienting of that online. I was really struck by what it felt like at the end. There's no kind of navigating your way out of it. There's no walk home where you can get to process and leave the environment. So for me the kind of bleakness of coming back down to earth afterwards it was really intense. I felt really sad. And I'm sure we'll get used to that a little bit. And there's lots about it which I love. I surprised myself. But that thing about, where does the experience start for an audience at a festival, from the invitation that you make to how they get there, to how they're welcomed, to how you say goodbye is really important. And, you know, what does it mean for us to produce and programme work in a new world, which may or may not be able to pay such attention to that? That doesn't help it a bit. Yeah.

And tomorrow would have been our opening party.

Matthew

Yeah, it would. And in fact, Claire, our Marketing Manager just texted me to say, really looking forward to the first night of 'I'm a Phoenix, Bitch' tonight (crying emoji) and that feels a bit sad. Yeah, it would have been our opening party tomorrow night. And it's weird because I can't really picture it in my head. What I thought it would be like because we were just about to nail where it was going to be before all of this happened. So I don't have an image of it in my head, which is quite weird. I have an image of all the other Mayfest parties that have ever been.

Kate

Yeah, same. There's this huge feeling of nostalgia about everything anyway, it's kind of fitting that where our head wanders to imagine tomorrow is actually a long time ago. For me, it's the Bristol Old Vic foyer when it had a purple carpet. Like, that's where I am having my party. I don't know how many years away from that room we need to get for that to not be where the party is.

Matthew

The squishy pint glass

Kate

But maybe that's maybe that's interesting. Maybe tomorrow in the way that we are having our "not a party" where we're hosting a playlist and inviting people to dance. I wonder if that experience will genuinely become a memory of a Mayfest party.

Matthew

Yeah, it will.

Kate

It's still part of the legacy of the festival even though it isn't it.

Matthew

Yeah, you're right. What were you most looking forward to this year?

Kate

You absolute bastard, I knew that that was the next question that you would ask, and I hate you for asking it.

Matthew

Because that's the question that every journalist ever asks us...

Kate

You just thought you'd be a journalist for a moment...

Matthew

... in an article with a headline 'May the Fest be With You'.

Kate

A smorgasbord of tasty, wacky treats.

Matthew

That is the worst question, isn't it? Sorry. But you have to answer it.

Kate

It's also not a great question for audio because there is going to be a long pause. Unless you have the answer already lined up Matthew, which I think in my might. And then while you talk, I can have a think and then I can try and win.

Matthew

I feel like I never have the definitive answer to this question, but the show that I was most scared about in the programme, is 50/50 Old School Animation. That was a show from New York that I saw with Kieran from Arnolfini around two years ago now. So my memory of it is fading. It's an incredibly brutal, difficult, challenging piece of work. But it's the kind of show that you know would do exactly what you needed it to do. Which is in the bar afterwards, people would be having quite intense debates about the subject matter and the show itself. So I was looking forward to the thrill of that show. I think whilst also feeling quite nervous about it. We try and challenge ourselves to ask, what are the shows that would absolutely not come to Bristol as part of anyone else's programme. What are the shows that we can challenge our audiences a bit, and 'take them out of their comfort zone'. And I feel like that show was doing that. So that would be my answer today.

Kate

Yeah, I was really looking forward to being in the room with that piece as well. Okay. We're answering the question from the point of view of today. It doesn't need to be definitive. I think I'm missing the idea of being with Raquel Meseguer's A Crash Course in Cloudspotting, because it's such a beautiful and complex project, practically and in terms of what it's talking about, and it's varied ways of reaching people. I was really looking forward to finally being at rest in this beautiful place. And I'm thinking about that today because I just want to lie down. We've chosen two very, very different things there. And the thing that is missed about the festival is exactly that collision. The idea that you could move from one to the other in the real world with real people. And have that sort of expansive and contradictory experience. It just feels like a real gift that we're not able to give people.

Matthew

Yeah, it's really frustrating. What are you glad that you're not having to deal with? Obviously, I'd much rather be getting ready to open a festival today. But I had a bit of a lie in this morning. So there's a bit of me that's glad not to have to be dealing with like, cushions.

Kate

Yeah. And me too. Not being faced with the reality of delivering something significant with a really small team. That dreadful combination of boring and stressful. Where you've got to do something because it really matters, but the experience of doing it is like, "Really? Again?". But in a way I sort of even miss that. I missed that today because it's a more connected sort of repetition. And God, it does make you realise all of the tiny ingredients that mount up to making something happen. I mean, it sounds a bit saccharin, but you realise when you're at a forced distance how much each tiny bit matters. So I feel like making loads of pledges about how to not get frustrated by the by some of the minutiae anymore. Because if it isn't there the whole thing falls over. In a way I'd rather be like stapling a sign to a railing in a high wind with you right now.

In fact, I think there's photo evidence of that.

Matthew

Yeah, or one of our team calling and saying "I think we might have a problem. I'm afraid they're not happy with their accommodation."

Kate

But also the whole concept of a problem has completely changed. You know, it's like, I'm sure it's fine. I'm sure that's probably fine

I've also noticed how much it's making me think of place, specifically Bristol. And why is that a surprise? Well, because in a way when you're not in any of those places, then it could be anywhere, but it's so here.

Matthew

Yeah. Why is that? It's made up of the people in the city, I suppose. Audiences.

Kate

Yeah. And the artistic community here, even though a lot of our programme is not based here, but there is something inherent about the culture or the flavour of the festival which cannot be separated from the place in which it comes to life. We've been asked whether we would consider doing a Mayfest somewhere else. And if we did, it wouldn't be a Mayfest.

And as we consider a different kind of 'somewhere else' over these next few days, how are we thinking to mark this time 'somewhere else'? Does it feel like Mayfest? Or is that actually not the point?

Matthew

I don't know. But I wonder whether it will feel like the memory of a Mayfest, even though what we'd like to do over the next few days is celebrate all the artists that would have been in the programme this year. But I feel like people will be viewing that through the memory of what it feels like to be at a Mayfest.

Kate

What did you have for lunch?

Matthew

I had a bacon sandwich actually. And a few Pringles. Really healthy lunch.

What did you have for lunch?

Kate

I have a tuna sandwiche and crisps. So we're on a similar vibe.

Is there anything that you wish that we had done differently in that moment? Is there anything that goes through your head as potentially very different responses or feelings? Or does that not really feeling possible to think about?

Matthew

Yeah, there's a very specific one for me actually, and it was through being "at" GIFT at the weekend. Maybe it was maybe it was a slight pang of jealousy about the way that Kate had managed to pivot everything into being online. Because when we discussed whether we should do an online festival, I think I had a very narrow image of what that would be, which was basically videos of shows. But Kate had managed to be so imaginative and actually capture some of the experience of what it's like to be at a festival. So if it was March again, with the with the knowledge I have now, I might have thought differently about that. But also, I do really hold on to Mayfest being about people coming together.

Kate

And I suppose decisions in that moment can only be led by the specific skills and instinct and experience of the person making the decision, and we don't currently don't have that bank of digital knowledge or expertise. So it would have been impossible to imagine what we now already begin to realise is possible. And that discovery is also quite exciting.

Matthew

How about you?

Kate

I just think we just did everything perfectly. And I'm just absolutely nailing my response to all of this.

Matthew

Who are you? Matt Hancock?

Kate

I have a regret, which slightly predates the decision making. It's a degree of blindness that I was carrying around. There was a week or so of being a bit giddy and not taking seriously the feelings and the anxieties that might be around already. I think I'm probably just describing a period of denial. And I mean that more personally than anything. I have a regret being a bit dismissive about about it, feeling like we're going to have to do this rather than this is obviously the right thing. Deciding that we are in service to something rather than part of it.

Matthew

Yeah. But there was that weird period where it was like, "wash your hands and sing Happy Birthday twice". Like there was some kind of national denial going on. There was a lot of anxiety, but also a lot of people just saying, "Oh, it's just like the flu. It doesn't matter."

Kate

Well, the whole country was led to believe that. An absolute disaster.

Matthew

When we were cancelling Undersong, there was a big part of me that was like "this is ridiculous? Why are we doing this? It's completely out of proportion." And of course we had to cancel it. But in that moment there was still that line between make "is this a massive overreaction? Or is it the right thing to do?" And yeah, of course, it was the right thing to do.

What makes you feel hopeful?

Kate

What makes me feel hopeful? People ... I've got a self consciousness about feeling like I don't have any original thoughts on this subject, because there's a lot of conversation about that. But I'm made very hopeful by the resilience and kindness that we see and feel in the people around us, and the power of attending to your community in whatever way you can. There's a fierceness of feeling around that for me, which makes me feel very hopeful. It makes me understand what we do in a slightly different way. That makes me feel hopeful.

But also ... It's a podcast, Kate, keep it light ... I don't feel massively hopeful.

Matthew

That's okay.

Kate

I say this in the context of not being unwell, or having loved ones who are, but there's a kind of almost painful beauty of sitting really still and trying to do the right thing. Like surrendering a bit. But that's not what your question is. What is being learned in this time? The process of slowing down and surrendering and really tuning in to the things that matter. And they're tiny, usually for me in every day. Yeah, there's a hope and a learning in that. And I'm hopeful about the fact that I still believe that artists and the stories that they create and conjure and express are absolutely vital. That we are nothing without the sharing of our experience. So really, the struggle for us at the moment is in the form. It makes me think what the hell is it all for? But also it doesn't. What about you?

Matthew

Yeah, I think I feel hopeful and stressed in equal measure about there being a moment for big changes, in the world and in the cultural sector. There's a moment of possibility. I feel hopeful about that. But I also feel really stressed about it because I feel like everyone is in a moment of panic about the future. And so our natural instinct is to do what we were doing before because that feels safe. And I feel like we have to have a moment to sit in it and go, "Okay, this is what this is" and then try and think about what the future could be together. Because also I don't really trust that it will change and I feel like that will be a real missed opportunity. I'm saying all that, not really knowing what I want to see ...

Kate

But also what what part we can play in that. What is the change we need to see. What do we do about it? What can we do about it? Or at least say about it.

Matthew

I was reading an article this morning about Yanis Varoufakis saying that this is a moment where capitalism could change completely. Thinking things as massive as that as well as what's the division of funding for the arts in Bristol? And how could that change? And they're all connected. But I'd hate to look back on this in 10 years time to look back on this and go, "Oh, bollocks". There was a moment there where we could have done something brilliant, once in a generation, and we actually fudged it and just went back to a kind of shitter version of what we had before.

Kate

Yeah, that's a really awful thought.

Matthew

A version of what we had before but everyone's standing 2 metres apart. No thanks.

Kate

Yeah, I mean, what we had before wasn't safe, obviously, in all meanings of the word. This isn't a safe world for most people ... I'm just watching a child blow bubbles in their garden. It's really dear. In a situation where certainly it feels to me and amongst our peers, that there is a bit of a hurry to articulate, but I just don't think we have the language. So, how to turn waiting and seeing into something which doesn't feel passive and copping out is a form of building resilience for the future.

Matthew

And being okay that no one knows the answers. A few people have forward me articles that they say are going to tell me exactly what's going to happen now.

Kate

Yeah, yeah until tomorrow.

Matthew

Yeah. Okay, so tomorrow night. What's the song that sums up a Mayfest party?

Kate

It's probably either Wuthering Heights by Kate Bush. Which I have a specific memory of me dragging Scottie's suitcase around in a bad version of that dance.

Or All Night Long

Matthew

I definitely think All Night Long is up there for me.

Kate

If I'm in a situation where that song's being played, it's the the track that everyone wants to dance to. But why is that in some way funny? Do you know what I mean? It's just an absolute banger. It's not funny. It's just a classic. So we can't just let ourselves be like great, of course. Enjoy yourself while simultaneously taking the piss out of yourself. So maybe a benefit of people just being on their own in the kitchen will be that everyone can just be deeply earnest and no one needs to know.

Matthew

For some reason I also want to say Rhythm is a Dancer.

I feel like I've seen Tanuja from Sleepdogs really going for that song.

Kate

Yeah, I can just hear the intro and see her waving her hands in the air.

Podcast produced by Bernie Hodges